annual,
Sorry I changed the title but it was potentially misleading, especially to newcomers.  I know you are struggling.  When did you start NT?  Sometimes people miss some basic principles and that can cause big problems.  If you let me know what your recent diet history is and what you ate yesterday, and the times, all day, plus your activities, I might be able to troubleshoot.

Jean

I apologize for my title, Jean.  That was bad form on my part.

I started NT in July 2009, but was guilty of several of the behaviors you listed in your July 16, 2010 post about why people do NT for years and see no progress (eating borderline and pleasure foods regularly, not eating on time, not eating enough to satisfy, etc.)  So since this July, I have tried to follow the principles more faithfully.  I eat real food when I get hungry - usually within 10 minutes of feeling hungry - and I stop when I’m satisfied.  I gained about 25 pounds the first year, and another 8 since July.

Diet history:  not dramatic.  The only times I’ve lost weight in the past were times I had a broken heart and couldn’t eat much for 3 months.  The lowest I ever weighed was 125 at 5’7”.  I gained back to 160 over several years, and then had three babies in three years in my early 40s.  (I’m now 47.)  I lost weight after the first baby by doing Body for Life, but only had five months off between #2 and #3, so didn’t lose much then.  The two years prior to really trying to do NT, I tried Body for Life again and got basically nowhere, and then tried writing down everything I ate and counting calories, trying to stay below 2,000 and still got nowhere.  Having read NT 20 years ago and having understood some of the principles, I couldn’t ever dedicate myself to a real diet, because I knew it was a waste of time.

So now I weigh 198, but I’m really, really well fed.  Here’s a look at yesterday:

5:30 Wake up, 3 scrambled eggs with 2% cheese, most of a bran muffin (the big ones they bake at the grocery store)
6:30 The rest of the muffin (I tend to get reactive hypoglycemia in the morning - a major blood sugar crash an hour after breakfast.  A few bites is enough to recover)
9:30 Beef stew, whole wheat bread with butter
12:30 Salad with lettuce, tomato, raisins, almonds, turkey deli meat, a small amount of crumbled blue cheese and tiny bit of balsamic dressing; triscuits
2:30 cottage cheese, one granola bar, 1/2 banana
5:30 The rest of the beef stew, whole-wheat banana bread (homemade), the rest of the banana and the other granola bar.
8:00 Yogurt (little package of Activia brand)

I also drank two diet sodas, several glasses of iced tea and two glasses of water.

For exercise, I spent 30 minutes wrestling with my 7 year-old son.  Kids are 8, 7, 5, and the 7 and 5 year olds have disabilities, so I am quite busy every day taking care of them.  I manage to lift weights 1 - 2 days a week, and walk 1 -2 days a week.

One thing I didn’t eat yesterday that I often do, is carrots with dip.  I’ve been using regular sour cream to make the dip, and probably eat 2 tbsp once a day.  I wonder if cutting back on that and butter on the bread would help.

Thank you for taking time to help me.  I am definitely struggling.

Annual

Hi annual, I saw your post yesterday and I felt for you all day, knowing you might be feeling hopeless and struggling. I will wait and see what Jean has to say, but looking at the foods, there are things that I would consider borderline and pleasure, although I might be more strict than someone else. I never did Body for Life but I’m familiar with that program and the nutrition part is nothing more than another diet. When I started NT, I had to give up overexercising because I could not figure out my body’s signals. I feel like I know you a little bit and I know you won’t give up and go back to dieting. You are already doing so many things right.

Are you thinking the bran muffins?  I can argue that the banana bread is not a pleasure food, as I took the recipe and modified it.  I used applesauce instead of oil, half the flour is whole wheat, I use no nuts and lower the sugar.  So it’s pretty decent quality, I think.

We need to talk about cheese.  I love cheese.  I mostly eat 2%, but I eat it frequently.  Like three servings a day.  (I hate to even admit that.  I know it’s probably too much.  I feel like I’m at a 12-step meeting here.)  But if cheese looks good to me, aren’t I supposed to eat cheese?  I suppose I could try drinking more milk to get my calcium servings in (I eat lots of cottage cheese and yogurt, too), but I only like milk with something like graham crackers.

What I need is a more strict list of “real” food, since I may be taking too many liberties.

This is all very humbling, I must say.  I’m usually good at things I undertake, but the past year or two I’ve been climbing steeper learning curves than I’m used to and it’s hard.  (Mastering NT is much like mastering gardening, I’m discovering.  Sounds easy at the outset, but when you get into it you realize it requires serious application of fairly strict principles to succeed.)

Annual,

I think your banana bread sounds delicious and I love what you’ve done to make it healthy for your family! To me, the bran muffin would be (occasional) pleasure food (those things are nothing but 600 calories of fat/sugar/salt.) Triscuits, to me, borderline. Granola bars, good for emergencies only but not when I’m home. I like Wasa, Ak Mak that are whole grain crackers. I think the cheese is okay, maybe less in quantity and go for the real thing, you might be more satisfied. Everyone has foods that they just must have, like my 85% chocolate that I have in small quantities every day. I also have that hypoglycemia thing if I don’t eat on time. I think it’s a sign of recovery, “body talk” if you will. My way of eating might feel too restrictive to you. Remember, Jean says each person must figure out how to best work with the NT guidelines to recover. Every BODY is different.

When I first started, Jean told me of her friend Skip who was a large woman and doing NT and I read here on some old post that Skip is now NT. Jean told me when I was plateau at my highest weight that I might want to choose lower fat foods in order to give my body the “go ahead” to burn fat. I don’t know if this advice would apply to you yet.

My favorite lunch is a peanut butter sandwich (two slices whole wheat bread—real bread, not thin sliced diet bread) and jam and an apple with cinnamon (cinnamon helps regulate blood sugar and is sweet). Sometimes I have this right before I go to the gym. I no longer work out on fumes! I have to eat peanut butter almost every day, I just have to!

Maybe go to NT and make a copy of the food lists and post it inside your cupboard where it’s easy to remind yourself. But don’t use this to make yourself feel guilty. We’re so over that! With our new baby grandson, I notice he wails if he’s hungry and he can’t wait. Also, if I offer him the bottle and he’s not hungry, he won’t take even a drop and he cries even more. Go figure, babies must know something.

dear annual,

I have some questions for you to think about and maybe make some changes.  Since I can’t talk to you, I am just guessing about what may be some of your trouble spots.  Sorry this took so long.  I’ve been out of town.

First of all, your diet history is very dramatic.  You have been on the feast or famine cycle for many years.  Whether or not you have been dieting in a formal way is beside the point.

If you have hypoglycemia, the muffin you have in the morning is not a good choice.  Muffins from the grocery store almost always have a considerable amount of sugar.  You should avoid sugar to prevent blood sugar crashes.

I am interested in why you eat three eggs.  You say you eat until you are full, but does that mean that you eat all of what you prepare each day?  When your body is in control, you should be tuning in and allowing your body to stop you.  You may be trying to eat in advance, which is not uncommon.

From the sound of your letter, you are still tuned in to amounts of food and controlling these amounts (tiny, little, cut down).  Are you eating food you want to eat?  Are you paying attention to shifting foods as your appetite shifts?  Your cutting back question at the end of the letter concerns me.  I believe you may be still focused on trying to hold back, especially early in the day.  Eating between meals, unless you are really not very hungry, should be meals.  This will help you feel satisfied and completely eliminatae hypoglycemia.  Remember what snacks are?

You are doing pretty well.  Don’t get discouraged.  This is a difficult program to learn and you need support, so stay tuned in to the forum.

Sincerely,
Jean

Am I eating food I want to eat?  Mostly.  What I really want to eat is the beef bourgignon from the gourmet shop down the street.  And a roast beef sandwich from the corner deli.  But those get expensive really fast, so I reign those urges in.

I try to think ahead about what foods I can make and freeze so they’ll be readily available (I made tons of beef stew last week and froze it in portions so I could microwave it when I got hungry.  Yummy.)  I have switched out the breakfast muffin for whole wheat toast (homemade!) with butter.  I often make three eggs, and I often throw some of it out.  But some days I very hungry for breakfast, and if I only make two, I end up making one more, which is a pain.  So I’d rather make too much and toss what I don’t want.  I’ve actually thrown away quite a bit of food lately.  Those last few bites on the plate that I just don’t want.

I’m curious…you asked if perhaps I’m eating in advance at breakfast, and then you suggested I might still be holding back, especially early in the day.  This seems contradictory to me.  Can you expand on that a little more?

I have also switched in the last few months to eating more protein, because that’s what I want to eat.  I feel more energized if I have protein at every meal, preferably in the form of animal flesh, although I do have cottage cheese usually in the afternoon before supper.  I find I eat a meal breakfast, mid-morning, lunch and dinner.  I usually have something smaller in the afternoon because that’s what I’m hungry for.  If I’m hungry before bed, I have a yogurt.

Now a confession.  I wake up every night about an hour after I go to bed.  STARTLED.  I think this started many years ago when my husband started working third shift.  I would go to bed around 9 and he would come in and kiss me goodnight when he went to work around 10.  I became conditioned, and we tried not saying goodnight when he left, but I still woke up.  And it happens no matter what time I go to bed.  If I go to bed when he leaves, I wake up at 11.  The problem is I’m so startled I want to get up and eat something.  I usually have a graham cracker and a piece of cheese and then I go back to sleep and all is well.  I’m sure that snack isn’t doing my weight any favors, but I’m not sure what to do about it.

I have learned that peanut butter doesn’t satisfy as a meal (although I like a bit smeared on an apple with a meal), and nuts don’t fill me up at all.  I’m really not into pleasure foods at all anymore (cookies and candy and such).  I still struggle with buying what I really want to eat if it’s too expensive.  I love Granny Smith apples, but sometimes they get really pricey.  I need to knock that off, because they’re cheaper than buying a muffin while I’m out erranding.

I think I’ll stop now.  Your response made me cry, which is how my truth meter goes off.  You definitely nailed some things, and I’m grateful.  I hope you got to go someplace warm.  I went to Minneapolis once in December…it was zero degrees and people were jogging.  brrrrrr

Thank you for your help.  And to the great crowd of witnesses out there, thanks to you all, too.

Annual

Dear Annual,

The combination of holding back and eating in advance are only possibilities for you to figure out.  Since I am not able to converse with you directly, I can only guess at what your trouble might be.  Remember, you own your diet, not I.  Ultimately you have to figure this out. I am trying to help you do that but I can’t do it for you.

The startle eating pattern suggests to me that it is possible that you are needing make up eating.  Again, this is only a suggestion, but, based on your eating report, it is a possibility.  I don’t believe people who are off the feast or famine cycle completely need to eat from feelingn startled.

You are experiencing many symptoms of recovery, so you are doing a lot that’s right.  Just keep tuned in to your body and fine tune your eating accordingly.

Sincerely,
Jean

This thread has been incredibly helpful to me, by correcting a lot of mistaken ideas.  I keep hearing Jean in my head, “Are you eating what you like?”  That’s been a huge one for me.  Sometimes I had been eating what I like, a lot of times I was eating what I thought I “should” and that wasn’t cutting it for me, but I didn’t acknowledge it.

And for some reason I didn’t get the concept of when you’re hungry, eat a meal.  When you get hungry again, eat another meal.  I now find I’m eating breakfast at 5:30 or 6, and dinner-type food at 8, and again every three or so hours.  Times between feedings have been longer because I’m better fed, and I eat my last meal at 3:30 or 4, with maybe a light snack at 6 or 7.  I’d heard other people talk about eating this way, but couldn’t imagine it for myself, but here we are!  Because I’m better fed early in the day, I’m not hungry later in the day.  And I never wake up hungry.  Jean was right about needing make-up eating.

These seem like such basic concepts, but I just didn’t really get them.  This program has been like a progressive revelation where I walk out what I understand, and as my understanding changes, I change my behavior.  I’m sure some people get it right from the start, but it took me a bit longer.  Old mindsets die hard.

Thanks, Jean!

annual - Nov 30, 2010 11:32am

This thread has been incredibly helpful to me, by correcting a lot of mistaken ideas.  I keep hearing Jean in my head, “Are you eating what you like?”  That’s been a huge one for me.  Sometimes I had been eating what I like, a lot of times I was eating what I thought I “should” and that wasn’t cutting it for me, but I didn’t acknowledge it.

And for some reason I didn’t get the concept of when you’re hungry, eat a meal.  When you get hungry again, eat another meal.  I now find I’m eating breakfast at 5:30 or 6, and dinner-type food at 8, and again every three or so hours.  Times between feedings have been longer because I’m better fed, and I eat my last meal at 3:30 or 4, with maybe a light snack at 6 or 7.  I’d heard other people talk about eating this way, but couldn’t imagine it for myself, but here we are!  Because I’m better fed early in the day, I’m not hungry later in the day.  And I never wake up hungry.  Jean was right about needing make-up eating.

You are making amazing progress annual! A lot of mental myths have to be broken down, but once you get it you get it! And your body and mind will be happier for it—at least that’s how it works for me. If I don’t eat (for the most part) the bulk of my food earlier in the day I do a lot of make up eating at night—that leads to potato chips or really rich foods with lots of butter or eating until I’m overstuffed. Two of the days at my job I am at work until 9:00. I am free to eat whenever I want, but I have to take lots of food with me. I do find that a challenge sometimes.

Thanks.  Any and all encouragement helps!

I feel for your situation but I think it’s a common issue that many encounter on their journey to becoming NT. Years of controlling and calculating and over thinking food and portion size will work against you. Thinking about what you put in your mouth is good…don’t get me wrong…but there is a fine line between making good choices and obsessing over the choices you have made. I struggled a lot with this when I started NT. I could tell you what I ate at what time I ate for the last several days when I was on NT. It was only with time that I realized I only think about food when I’m hungry. I couldn’t tell you what I ate yesterday for lunch because it doesn’t matter. I was hungry, I thought about what I wanted and what my body needed and satisfied my hunger. Food isn’t my life. Food is my fuel. I enjoy it but I don’t obsesses over it. With time and practice you will reach the point where you are in tune with your body and you will learn to trust your body and yourself. You will have more important things to think about. Feed you body when you are hungry. Don’t be afraid to satisfy your hunger. Stop eating when you are not longer interested in the food.  But get busy enjoying you life, your family, your friends. Use a holistic approach. You aren’t just changing your the way you eat…you are changing the way think and the way you live. Your will loose the weight but in the process you will also change your life and really, finding peace with yourself is just as important as losing the weight.

I find I can’t always remember what I ate earlier in the same day, which is an amazing development.  And I never think about food anymore, either, unless I’m hungry.  That’s amazing.  And check this out:  My parents were coming for tea mid-afternoon yesterday, and I had pumpkin pie to serve.  I was hungry about 15 minutes before their arrival, so I quickly made my favorite oatmeal (with peanut butter and raisins) and finished eating it just as they arrived.  My tummy was full and happy and I couldn’t have cared less about pie.  And nobody cared that I wasn’t having any.  I was so proud of myself for making a really smart decision and acting on it quickly.

I’m fascinated by the different foods I’ve been hungry for as I’ve progressed.  Right now I’m on a roast chicken/butternut squash bender.  I have it twice a day.  Protein, protein, PROTEIN just makes me so happy and energetic.  The bagels I used to love are just not interesting to me anymore.  And green vegetables seem to be less exciting to me now and the orange ones are in.  And pleasure foods continue to just not be that pleasurable.  I tasted some of my mom’s treats the other day:  bite of chocolate cake - blech.  Christmas cookie?  Eh.  M&M!!!  Boring.  None of them made my mouth happy.  Wild.

Thanks for the encouragement, Bren.  It’s always nice to get perspective from someone farther down the road.

Thanks, BREN and ANNUAL, for your input.  It is Christmas Day and I am not in the best of situations for applying NT principles.  So I am doing the best I can… praying a lot.  I am finding some quiet moments to enjoy as well as the company of loved ones.  Just thought I’d take a few minutes to read some of the entries here to remind myself that I am not the only one in the world who is interested in eating well, on time, and enough during the holidays.  There are lots and lots of pleasure foods where I am and the temptation to indulge in them whether or not I am hungry is strong.  However, not letting myself stray very far away from real foods and eating them as soon after hunger signals as possible is keeping me from having to use super-human will-power in order to avoid indulgence in pleasure foods which do not seem to meet my need for real food.  I just read some things Jean wrote about pleasure foods and sweets:  “PLEASURE FOOD
  There is nothing wrong with pleasure foods.  They don’t cause obesity, and eliminating them, by itself, won’t cure it either.  Why list them?  Why even mention pleasure foods if there’s nothing wrong with them? 
  Pleasure foods are just fine for fun.  The trouble lies with the dieter who misuses them for real-food purposes.  There are two main reasons why they are misused. First, the dieter is overhungry and craves fat-producing pleasure foods because she needs fat.  Second, all too often when hunger strikes, pleasure foods are available and real foods are not.  That’s it in a nutshell.  Now go do something about it…..    SWEETS
  Sugar and sweet treats have such a bad name in our country today.  Recently we’ve “discovered” that sweets are not only responsible for obesity but for a host of other major ailments as well.  In fact, an entire best-selling book has been dedicated to the damnation of sweets and sugars.
  I personally do not give sugar and her pleasure foods that much credit.  It is clear to me that they don’t cause obesity, and I’m not at all convinced that they, by themselves, cause much else, either.  I’d have to blame the traditional quick-weight loss diet for many more nutrition-related diseases and disorders than sugar could ever cause.
  I have already spent enough time in this book talking about the very minor role that sweets might appropriately play in the diet of a natural thin.  (Naturally thin people seldom even have an opinion on the subject.)  You must know the major part they have played in your feasts (binges).  I trust that you’ve put it all together by now, and most likely you have some strong ideas of your own.”

Reading this seemed to help me in some way.  Perhaps someone who is in a similar situation as I today may appreciate these excerpts.

Love, Peace, and Joy to all!
Ela

Hey Ela!

I wonder if you can steal some leftovers.  If there’s a slab of meat around (turkey, ham, roast beef), carve some off for yourself right after dinner and slap it on some bread (maybe with a bit of that nice dip someone brought) and then wrap it up and hide it in the fridge for later.  It’s so hard for your diet to be at the mercy of someone else’s hospitality.  Just keep doing the best you can and eat when you’re hungry.  Just not the plate of fudge.

: )

Merry Christmas!

annual